Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:10:30 +0100 From: Paul Barclay Subject: [O] NetRep Reply 533 ======================================================================= NetRep Reply number 533 to the Magic: the Gathering List ======================================================================= This reply covers the digests: Special Continuous Effects "Brains Oozing out of Ears" Issue Older replies may be found at: http://www.second-hand.demon.co.uk ftp://ftp.magic.asuka.net http://yavapai.ccgnews.com http://www.en.magic.asuka.net http://www.wizards.com/dci/judge/judgelistarchive.asp Don't even think about reading this Reply if you want to keep your brain from oozing out from your ears. It's full of continuous effects stuff that most people won't even want to think about. SHORT ANSWERS: ======================================================================= ** I'm serious about the brain oozing out from your ears part. LONG ANSWERS: ======================================================================= Well, you were warned. On your own head be it (or should that be "out of your own head..."?) ----- [Michael Kastberg, asking about continuous effects] >21. Ingo has a Forest in play. He then plays a Conversion. After that, >Laurie plays Phantasmal Terrain on the Forest, naming Mountain. Is the >Forest now: >a) A Mountain >b) A Plains >c) Both B. A Plains. Conversion depends on Phantasmal Terrain. Note: if the land was a Mountain to start with, the land would now be a Mountain. Yes, I do realise that this is really confusing and unintuitive. ----- [Jeff Jordan, talking about duration effects] >>>Paul has said that "until >>>" works the same as "as long as ," and some >>>tap-and-hold effects are worded "until ~ becomes untapped" anyway.) >> >> They shouldn't be. Point them out and they'll be fixed. > >Preacher and Scarwood Bandits. Gaea's Liege. I'll get them fixed if they need it. If you find any more, just let me know. >The phrase "until it leaves play" is contained in >the reminder text of many effects to indicate a permanent effect, and >could be misconstrued to make it a duration effect. I'm not too worried about reminder text. >> When did I say that "until" and "as long as" were the same? Recently >> or long ago? > >NetRep reply #443, almost a year ago (but well into the 6E rules era). >The ruling exists in D'Angelo as well (T.8.14). Ok. I think I was wrong - this was before I knew that a difference was in fact intended. >I have you in a Catch-22 situation. I tricked you (and I admitted it >at the time) into agreeing that "as long as" works just like "until" >so that rule 418.3d could be applied to Amber Prison. If "as long as" >is not the same as "until," then rule 418.3d (the one about an effect >doing nothing if its *duration* expires before resolution) applies to >my Giant Growth scenario and *not* to "as long as" effects! That's correct. However, there's a specific ruling on Ertai's Meddling from Bethmo that says that it's not subject to the normal rules on duration effects. So, "Hah", "Hah", and thrice "Hah" - my cunning trap was so cunning you could brush your teeth with it, while yours was merely cunning. >You will have difficulty applying this definition to the existing >effects because "as long as" is used several ways in existing >templates. It is used with continuous effects as a condition to apply >the effect (Howling Mine, Common Cause). You will have to explain why >CEs turn themselves back on when the condition becomes true, while tap- >and-holds do not. Licids will have to be reworded. Continuous Effects aren't covered by rule 418.3d: |418.3d If an effect's duration expires before the spell or ability |creating it resolves, then the effect does nothing-it doesn't start and |immediately stop again, and it doesn't last forever. So, this definition is just fine. ----- [Jeff Jordan, talking about dependencies] >The problem is in the definition of a "dependency." Yeah. I know. I don't like the Rules Team's definition of "dependency", but we've been through this loop three or four times before. Much as I want it to change, it's not going to. Sorry. >This situation gets even more complicated if any PTCEs depend on >"normal" effects, since by definition the PTCE *must* be applied >first. AFAIK, there aren't any. This is not true. Dependency overrides everything. However, as you say, there aren't any other than control changing effects and ability text altering effects, which are weird anyway. If a permanent type changer depended on a normal effect, the normal effect would have to be applied before the PTCE. >>** "Sacrifice a wibble" means that you can sacrifice anything with >> name or creature type of "wibble". The same applies to "search >> for", or anything else (obviously, some cards specify "named", >> or "creature type") > >Any effect that creates Goblin tokens creates a permanent with both >name and creature subtype of "Goblin." The NR529 rulings suggests >that you can sacrifice a Sculpted Goblin token to Goblin Grenade. The point is that when you Soul Sculpt the card, it is no longer a Goblin - the Sculptor's CE wipes the Goblin subtype along with the "Creature" permanent type. ----- [Jeff Jordan, with more on continuous effects] >... a Plains. Both Conversion and PTerrain are PTCEs since both could >change a land-creature into just a land (think Animate Land followed >by either enchantment, if you don't want to have to think about order). It will be a Plains, but Conversion (All mountains are plains) is not permanent type changing. But, in this case, it's irrelevant whether they're permanent type changing or not - the Conversion depends on the Phantasmal Terrain. Note that the only reason that there is a difference between "permanent type changing effects" and "other effects" is to calculate counters correctly. The rule therefore only needs to apply to things that change power/toughness in some way. Don't get too hung up about it - timestamp and dependency give you the correct results in all other cases. >The zones where the subject >cards reside would never change in mid-calculation; only during an >event where the PW (or whatever was a PW when the ability was used) >also changed zones. CEs are not calculated in the middle of events >like this (reference: Paul's model of events in NR 485. The >properties of the various permanents, and their disposition in the >impending event, are determined before the event occurs. The event >then operates on prettily-colored pieces of paper. After the event >occurs, new properties are determined.) That's correct, yes. (I know that wasn't a question, but this subject is quite confusing, so I'm confirming stuff too) ----- [Jeff Jordan on the "tapped Artifacts" rule] >It was a rule so complex that nobody >understood it well enough to see how complex it was. :) Too true. :-) ----- [Jeff Jordan, asking about the ending conditions of effects] >An example (well, *the* example) is Old Man of the Sea. Say you have >an Orcish Oriflame, you attack with a Keldon Warlord that is barely >controlled by Old Man, and you have more creatures than your opponent >(pause while Mic gathers his revolutionary friends - but I didn't >originate this one, Mic). His power may never actually "be" greater >than the Old Man's, but the control effect ends. No. It will have a Power greater than the Old Man as the "AFTER" condition for the Declare Attackers event, and for the "BEFORE" condition of the ending of the Old Man's ability. Yes, the ending of an effect is an event (it fulfils the criteria: A physical change of the game state) >If you want to really test this, change the Warlord to a Phyrexian >Devourer, ask if it triggers, who sacrifices it if it does, and hand >me over to Mic's friends. The Devourer triggers (it's got a state-trigger), but the person controlling the Old Man controls the ability, so it won't be sacrificed as she no longer controls it when the ability resolves. Paul. - -------------------------------------------------NEW-PHONE-NUMBER-- - - Paul Barclay -- paul@second-hand.demon.co.uk -- Phone: 07939 081819 - - DCI Level 3 judge ---- http://www.second-hand.demon.co.uk/index.htm - - Official MTG-L Network Representative for Wizards of the Coast, Inc -